 |
Talk Back Registration is NOT necessary to use this forum
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jeffp Homo Sapiens


Joined: 06 Mar 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Los Gatos, CA
|
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: 43. A Game Of Thrones, George R. R. Martin (mild spoilers) |
|
|
This book came highly recommended, and while I'm glad I read it, I've read better fantasy. A Game Of Thrones is good, and the story is interesting, but it didn't quite rise to the "great" category for me.
The story itself follows several main characters - all of royal blood in one way or another - as they struggle through events in a kingdom in which the king's power is on the wane. Each chapter is told from the perspective of one of these characters, and the point of view jumps around between them. The plot is very complex, the cast of supporting characters is huge, the action is quick and the writing well paced.
It sounds like a perfect book, right? Alas, for me, there were a few flaws.
That huge cast of supporting characters is actually too large. It was impossible for me to keep them all straight, and even the appendix at the back didn't help much. (I tried looking up a couple of characters and couldn't find them there at all.) I toyed with the idea of taking notes to keep track of people, but this was supposed to be pleasure reading, and that seemed like more trouble than it was worth.
Martin is quite happy to kill off characters that he's spent time making you think are going to stick around. It was frustrating to watch someone you thought was important - and that you were going to get to know for a while - die. A corollary to that is that it is entirely unclear idea which characters - if any - the author thinks actually are important, and will stick around. He has little or no empathy for anyone in this story, and that comes through in the writing.
I never bought (or understood) the king's decline. None of the story is told from his point of view, and his actions seem to have no basis in reason that I can find. Something seemed off there.
I have seen the "each chapter told from a different point of view" approach work very successfully elsewhere. Here, however, it seemed to be a vehicle for obscuring important information, rather than something that assisted the telling of the story. Just when you thought you might learn something interesting the narrator's point of view would change, and some unknown amount of time would pass - possibly going back in time to tell another piece of the story that was happening in parallel.
There are actually two stories going on in this book, held together by only the most tenuous of threads. It is likely that the later volumes bring these stories together in a more direct fashion - you can sort of see it coming - but in this volume they were so disparate that it was distracting.
Finally, there was something about the writing that let me drop the book just about anywhere without hesitation. I could literally put it down mid-paragraph without thinking about it. Usually when I read, I get so wrapped up in the book that I don't stop before the end of a chapter at a minimum, and I have been known to sit up for hours reading to get to a good stopping point. That never happened here, and I don't know why.
I know others have raved about this book, but given that list of reservations, I cannot claim A Game Of Thrones is one of my favorites.
There was one other oddity here, but I cannot hold it against the author. Years ago I subscribed to Fantasy & Sciene Fiction and I read a novella in there that I still remember. I found that novella in here, in it's entirety. Martin had extracted the story of Dany and published it separately in the magazine. I don't think he even did much editing - just took all the chapters from Dany's perspective, put them together, and voila - a novella. In truth, I found that story more interesting in novella form, since it had no interruptions and thus better pacing. Rereading it here - split into pieces - was an interesting experience, and highlighted some of the other issues called out above.
Overall, I'd say this was a good book, and clearly the author put a lot of time and effort into its creation. I'll continue reading the series and hope for some subtle changes that might make the later volumes more appealing.
Last edited by jeffp on Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
shaw Java Man

Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 1025
|
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: Re: 43. A Game Of Thrones, by George R. R. Martin |
|
|
| jeffp wrote: |
I toyed with the idea of taking notes to keep track of people, but this was supposed to be pleasure reading, and that seemed like more trouble than it was worth.
Martin is quite happy to kill off characters that he's spent time making you think are going to stick around. It was frustrating to watch someone you thought was important - and that you were going to get to know for a while - die. A corollary to that is that it is entirely unclear idea which characters - if any - the author thinks actually are important, and will stick around.
|
I actually did have to take notes.
Eventually you relax and trust Martin will remind you of who people are. But that is a hard part about the book.
The thing about him killing off characters is on the money - the difference is that I see it as an ASSET. When someone you like is in danger, you don't have that "well, he's a main character so I don't have to worry" feeling. Nobody is invulnerable. If an unarmed character is beset by an enemy with a sword, you may be saying goodbye to somebody.
Ultimately, it comes to the writing. If you were putting it down, then this is all moot - it wasn't a good book for you to invest in. I couldn't put it down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jeffp Homo Sapiens


Joined: 06 Mar 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Los Gatos, CA
|
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I recognize that reality and fiction are often at odds with each other, and that Martin's willingness to knock off anyone at any time is closer to reality. However, there is something to be said for the practice (in fiction) of letting your reader understand (from his or her privilidged perspective) that some characters are special. It's a time honored concept and there is good reason for it. If I'm going to invest so much time getting to know someone, I'm really going to feel cheated if they die abruptly before the story ends. Particularly if that story is 4+ volumes long.
As to putting it down, I wish I understood that issue. When I read the excerpted novella about Dany, I didn't feel like I could put it down anywhere. That was a good story, well told, and it worked. Here, those same words don't work as well, and I therefore suspect it has something to do with the way the story is told. Perhaps all the changes in point of view are distracting. Perhaps it's just me.
Anyway, I will start on volume II next. I already own it, so it's not a big deal to get going on it.
--jeffp |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
galactic_dev Cro-Magnon Man

Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 345 Location: Boulder, CO
|
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jeffp wrote: | I recognize that reality and fiction are often at odds with each other, and that Martin's willingness to knock off anyone at any time is closer to reality. However, there is something to be said for the practice (in fiction) of letting your reader understand (from his or her privilidged perspective) that some characters are special. It's a time honored concept and there is good reason for it. If I'm going to invest so much time getting to know someone, I'm really going to feel cheated if they die abruptly before the story ends. Particularly if that story is 4+ volumes long.
--jeffp |
That's so cute and old fashioned! You prefer the classical radio station too, don't you?
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jeffp Homo Sapiens


Joined: 06 Mar 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Los Gatos, CA
|
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, I'm an old-fashioned sort of guy in some ways.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
shaw Java Man

Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 1025
|
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jeffp wrote: | | I recognize that reality and fiction are often at odds with each other, and that Martin's willingness to knock off anyone at any time is closer to reality. |
Man, we rarely disagree so strongly. In reality, people don't die all that often. Even in most wars, the casualty rate doesn't hit 50%. I said "most".
To me it isn't about being realistic, it is about being good fiction. I understand your point about emotionally investing in someone just to see them die, but if that happens, then you get to experience real drama - a death that matters to you.
But above the deaths mattering to you, more importantly, the danger matters to you. You've emotionally invested in a character, the character is threatened, and you know that this character has no "protagonist charm" in his or her pocket. This could be the END. It REALLY could be! You know how this Martin bastard operates.
At least for me, I was never more emotionally involved in dangerous situations in a novel. Anything could happen.
Obviously it is all a matter of opinion, but you and I rarely have such divergent opinions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jeffp Homo Sapiens


Joined: 06 Mar 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Los Gatos, CA
|
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| shaw wrote: | | In reality, people don't die all that often. |
Actually, Doug, everybody dies at some point. 100% of the population dies given enough time.
And I don't think I see the word "most" in your original followup to my review...
But seriously...
I didn't mean to imply that wars were overwhelmingly fatal. Nor that the writing approach of taking away the main character's invulnerability isn't an interesting technique. The problem is that we read and write about the interesting stories in the world (or in made up worlds). Let me give you an example story that doesn't work:
| Quote: | | Bob is born, lives an uneventful life until age 22, and dies in a car crash along with 50,000 other people that year. |
Boring. How about this:
| Quote: | | Jeff is born, becomes a computer programmer, works for a string of companies no one has heard of, retires, goes on social security, and does of liver disease at age 72. |
Yawn.
Sorry. Those stores would never make it. What we read about are the exceptions. The people who had lives that are interesting in some way, or the interesting parts of an otherwise dull life. Reading the mundane details of life (went to lunch, had a burrito, went back to work...) would be pointless. We already live that every day of our lives.
As a result of that, we (or at least I) expect my main characters to be relevant and be part of the tale. Yes, they can die, but it has to be for a reason. Tragedy is another option - a literary form where the hero dies. But note that in a tragedy it is generally the case that the hero(s) die at the end of the story. Otherwise, they never get the chance to become the hero in the first place. (Meet Bob. Bob dies. Now meet Frank and we'll tell you the rest of the story. You never really care about Bob, do you?) That wasn't the case with an important figure in A Game of Thrones; we had no idea his death was coming and it happens at the end of a book that (so far) has 4 volumes, and probalby will have 5 or 6 before it is done. That's not tragedy (in the sense of the literary form) but it is irritating (to me).
I'm babbling and probably making no sense, but something in the way Martin wrote this book left me thinking he had no interest in or empathy for any of his characters. None. Nadda. Zero.
Maybe he will never pick a hero to stick with in this tale... I really don't know. In any event, I found it disturbing. I found it even more disturbing that it may be the way the book is carved up that might be driving my frustration with the story. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
shaw Java Man

Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 1025
|
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jeffp wrote: |
Maybe he will never pick a hero to stick with in this tale... I really don't know. In any event, I found it disturbing. I found it even more disturbing that it may be the way the book is carved up that might be driving my frustration with the story. |
I have to tell you, having read the first three (or four?) books, that the "you killed HIM off?" trend continues. There is a character that I'm starting to believe is invulnerable, and is kind of my "hero" in the story, but we are only halfway done.
We should probably write (mild spoilers) at the title of this thread, as we are dancing a little close to the line, eh?
I guess I would not recommend that you read the second book, because everything you didn't like about the first book is increased in the second. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jeffp Homo Sapiens


Joined: 06 Mar 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Los Gatos, CA
|
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| shaw wrote: | | I have to tell you, having read the first three (or four?) books, that the "you killed HIM off?" trend continues. There is a character that I'm starting to believe is invulnerable, and is kind of my "hero" in the story, but we are only halfway done. |
That is good to know. I'll keep it in mind.
| shaw wrote: | | We should probably write (mild spoilers) at the title of this thread, as we are dancing a little close to the line, eh? |
Done.
| shaw wrote: | | I guess I would not recommend that you read the second book, because everything you didn't like about the first book is increased in the second. |
Too late. I started it yesterday. Just barely, but I have started it.
I'm an odd duck about some things. Ed loaned me 3 EQ novels a while back and said they were in order (from best to worst) A, B, C. Ed's read a lot of EQ, as we all know, and I trust his judgement, but when I read them, I liked them in order of C, B, A. I don't know what that means, but I do know that recommendations (particularly negative recommendations) don't seem to hold water for me when I get around to reading or watching or listening to whatever it is. I'll keep on with the series, and your comments will help me with my expectations.
Thanks! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|